Rapture

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Re: Rapture

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:00 am

Zaki90 wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:
Zaki90 wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:
Baconsen wrote:
Death no more wrote:Has anyone mentioned this? Pollution would be one helluva problem and air supplies to, you guys gotta get the basic stuff outa the way before we think about the government ;)
Everything would be Hydroelectric.
So...clean...

Hyrdroelectric how? Tidal generators would be expensive to build/maintain, and for those you need to be in relatively shallow water. You cant have something like a hyrdroelectric dam...
Dont even bring geothermal into this, unless there is a fault line or another area located where the pressure would be bearable, its out of the question. What about earthquakes themselves? they could wreak havoc on an underwater city.

Volcanic hot spots... These things can be used with water to create a powerful steam current qualified to create electricity.

And earthquakes occur only near fault lines, not close to the center. My example is Hawaii. Which rarely has a earthquake large enough to create a major problem.

There are too many issues with the idea of an underwater Geothermal Plant for it to be chosen to be a cities life line. Its just the amount of things that could go wrong would kill the city if one of them occured.

And, once again, there are not many spots where Geothermal plants could be placed, especially in shallow water.

Also, if a small earthquake shook the structure just enough to loosen some joints, you would have leaks EVERYWHERE.

But there are places.

And if a small earthquake shook the structure, we could easily used our modern technology to make rapture a earthquake proof city. It's not impossible
.

Not many places near the surface. Lets not even try and think of what would happen if extra water got in from a leak or if the part of the city had a breach. There are alot of problems with it, and it might not be worth the risk.

It would be rather hard to stop an Earthquake, because in the ocean some of the vibration travels through the water. Our Earthquake technology works because on land they travel mainly through the ground.




Zaki90 wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:How about the Air? the atmosphere isn't pure oxygen, so you need to have some way or drawing in air from the outside world. Fresh water? sure, you could probably use something like electrolysis(sp?) along with a few other processes to generate some freshwater and/or oxygen+hydrogen(as opposed to other methods, which would require other thigs that the underwater city wouldn't have). That would sap alot of electrical energy.

As for the air, giant tubs of algae with giant tubes and lights overhead that connect to a filter then connected to the ventilation system should work. Yes, you can grow plants on artificial lights.

What now?
How does that equate to the atmosphere of earth?

Well, you got oxygen, and carbon dioxide. Nitrogen from our crap. Water vapor also. What else do you need?
All of those in the right proportions plus some more stuff

Zaki90 wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote: What about other things like food? A self-sustaining system is nearly out of the question; you can get a few main necessities of plant life bit will still be missing many of them. Sunlight + C02 + Water =/= healthy plant. There are alot of things in the soil that would need to be artificially introduced whenever you wanted to grow something.

We will bring soil down. We have quite a bit nowadays. Food will easily be taken from plants and fish.
Bringing down soil would create a reliance on the surface for supplies.
There are not a huge amount of plants to take food from underwater.
To easily take food from fish, you need to actually go fish.

Soil isn't like gas. You have soil for a pretty nice million years if it is undisturbed. Throw some worms in their and move the soil around every once and a while and you have a basically infinite of time with it.

I meant grow PLANTS underwater. As in apple trees and orange trees.

So? We have been fishing for thousands of years. Submarines will be our fishing ships.


You would still have to get newer soil. Besides, that method of farming wouldn't be the most effective. REGARDLESS, you would have to rely on the surface for supplies.

Subs?

Zaki90 wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:Lets talk about the ocean itself for a minute... it is a very corrosive enviroment. To add to that there are many life forms that could cause problems. Your underwater citie's outer skin would need to be made out of something very resistant to corrosion, and that is strong. There are sufficient materials in shallow water. Keep getting deeper though and mankind has no such materials to do this with.

See, they used glass/plastic and metal. If the outer skin breaks, they shut down whatever part of the hull was breached. It's simple.
No. Its not simple. Once again, unless you are in very shallow water, your city will crumple like an aluminum can under a fat man's foot.

Elaborate...

Materials are only so strong... you put enough force/pressure on them and they break. Right now, there are no materials that would be suitable for an underwater city if it were not in shallow water.

Dont over-estimate the limits of Human Technology, thats what gets people killed.


Zaki90 wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:Putting those types of problems aside, you would still have to deal with the detrimental effects on the mental health of people due to being underwater for very long periods of time. Not everyone can handle it, and even when they can they can still get twitchy.

The gangs would be the main effect of people's mental health, which imo doesn't seem so bad.

That makes no sense. Gangs? where the hell are gangs going to come from? And tell my how the situation of an underwater city would not be detrimental to someone's mental health.

Gangs come from the people in the city?

The underwater city has increased pressure. People have more fears. It goes against all instinct to live in the bottom of the sea. People are going to feel a bit crammed. Fresh air will be non-existent. It's a very droopy place. Almost scary to some people. It will lead to so pretty frantic times if we begin sending people in.


Im failing to see how gangs would form...

And exactly, that is a problem, you just proved what I stated...





Once again in bold.
In Italics

Even if an underwater city were achievable, there is no reason to attempt one anywhere in the near future.

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Re: Rapture

Post by Zaki90 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:35 am

Kasrkin Seath wrote:
Zaki90 wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:
Zaki90 wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:
Baconsen wrote:
Death no more wrote:Has anyone mentioned this? Pollution would be one helluva problem and air supplies to, you guys gotta get the basic stuff outa the way before we think about the government ;)
Everything would be Hydroelectric.
So...clean...

Hyrdroelectric how? Tidal generators would be expensive to build/maintain, and for those you need to be in relatively shallow water. You cant have something like a hyrdroelectric dam...
Dont even bring geothermal into this, unless there is a fault line or another area located where the pressure would be bearable, its out of the question. What about earthquakes themselves? they could wreak havoc on an underwater city.

Volcanic hot spots... These things can be used with water to create a powerful steam current qualified to create electricity.

And earthquakes occur only near fault lines, not close to the center. My example is Hawaii. Which rarely has a earthquake large enough to create a major problem.

There are too many issues with the idea of an underwater Geothermal Plant for it to be chosen to be a cities life line. Its just the amount of things that could go wrong would kill the city if one of them occured.

And, once again, there are not many spots where Geothermal plants could be placed, especially in shallow water.

Also, if a small earthquake shook the structure just enough to loosen some joints, you would have leaks EVERYWHERE.
But there are places.

And if a small earthquake shook the structure, we could easily used our modern technology to make rapture a earthquake proof city. It's not impossible


Not many places near the surface. Lets not even try and think of what would happen if extra water got in from a leak or if the part of the city had a breach. There are alot of problems with it, and it might not be worth the risk.

It would be rather hard to stop an Earthquake, because in the ocean some of the vibration travels through the water. Our Earthquake technology works because on land they travel mainly through the ground.



Water is easier to protect against. A simple, but think outer coating of plastic in a certain formation (like a diamond laid flat) would cut through the water while keep everything inside protected.


Zaki90 wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:How about the Air? the atmosphere isn't pure oxygen, so you need to have some way or drawing in air from the outside world. Fresh water? sure, you could probably use something like electrolysis(sp?) along with a few other processes to generate some freshwater and/or oxygen+hydrogen(as opposed to other methods, which would require other thigs that the underwater city wouldn't have). That would sap alot of electrical energy.

As for the air, giant tubs of algae with giant tubes and lights overhead that connect to a filter then connected to the ventilation system should work. Yes, you can grow plants on artificial lights.

What now?
How does that equate to the atmosphere of earth?

Well, you got oxygen, and carbon dioxide. Nitrogen from our crap. Water vapor also. What else do you need?
All of those in the right proportions plus some more stuff

Like?

Zaki90 wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote: What about other things like food? A self-sustaining system is nearly out of the question; you can get a few main necessities of plant life bit will still be missing many of them. Sunlight + C02 + Water =/= healthy plant. There are alot of things in the soil that would need to be artificially introduced whenever you wanted to grow something.

We will bring soil down. We have quite a bit nowadays. Food will easily be taken from plants and fish.
Bringing down soil would create a reliance on the surface for supplies.
There are not a huge amount of plants to take food from underwater.
To easily take food from fish, you need to actually go fish.

Soil isn't like gas. You have soil for a pretty nice million years if it is undisturbed. Throw some worms in their and move the soil around every once and a while and you have a basically infinite of time with it.

I meant grow PLANTS underwater. As in apple trees and orange trees.

So? We have been fishing for thousands of years. Submarines will be our fishing ships.


You would still have to get newer soil. Besides, that method of farming wouldn't be the most effective. REGARDLESS, you would have to rely on the surface for supplies.


Subs?


Some supplies. Very few actually. If you want name them. I really can't think of them at the moment.

You can farm without soil. All you need is Hydroponics. Its a nutrient solution.

Submarines for catching fish. You wanna launch a ship in the bottom of the sea?


Zaki90 wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:Lets talk about the ocean itself for a minute... it is a very corrosive enviroment. To add to that there are many life forms that could cause problems. Your underwater citie's outer skin would need to be made out of something very resistant to corrosion, and that is strong. There are sufficient materials in shallow water. Keep getting deeper though and mankind has no such materials to do this with.

See, they used glass/plastic and metal. If the outer skin breaks, they shut down whatever part of the hull was breached. It's simple.
No. Its not simple. Once again, unless you are in very shallow water, your city will crumple like an aluminum can under a fat man's foot.

Elaborate...

Materials are only so strong... you put enough force/pressure on them and they break. Right now, there are no materials that would be suitable for an underwater city if it were not in shallow water.

Then how did we make the Trieste reach the deepest point in the ocean. It clearly had some kinda materials that are qualified for the pressure.

Dont over-estimate the limits of Human Technology, thats what gets people killed.


Zaki90 wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:Putting those types of problems aside, you would still have to deal with the detrimental effects on the mental health of people due to being underwater for very long periods of time. Not everyone can handle it, and even when they can they can still get twitchy.

The gangs would be the main effect of people's mental health, which imo doesn't seem so bad.

That makes no sense. Gangs? where the hell are gangs going to come from? And tell my how the situation of an underwater city would not be detrimental to someone's mental health.

Gangs come from the people in the city?

The underwater city has increased pressure. People have more fears. It goes against all instinct to live in the bottom of the sea. People are going to feel a bit crammed. Fresh air will be non-existent. It's a very droopy place. Almost scary to some people. It will lead to so pretty frantic times if we begin sending people in.


Im failing to see how gangs would form...

And exactly, that is a problem, you just proved what I stated...


Gangs would form from the same reason, but with more motivation than the ones on the surface today.

Technically speaking, the air would not be fresh. It would be recycled. It is still livable in, but it is not fresh.






Once again in bold.
In Italics

Even if an underwater city were achievable, there is no reason to attempt one anywhere in the near future.

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Re: Rapture

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:46 am

It would not be easier to protect against. A large wave in the the water is going to hit the structure with quite a bit of force, you can't make it magically disappear. It is much much harder to try and lengthen the time in which it is applied over as well(which is basically what structures on land do)
-----
Supplies, supplies, supplies... Hydroponics basically sprays nutrients. Nutrients are made from stuff. You still rely on outside supplies.

fishing with a sub would be much more difficult.
Besides, where are you going to get said sub and people to operate it?
-----
No, not materials, it had design. It was small and compact, which was what allowed it's design to work. A city is large, and since there are basically no easy designs that would work you have to rely off of a really good material in this case.
-----
Explain how gangs would form.





You are still failing to adress what the purpose of said city would be. We are looking at something that is barely even doable by today's standards, would be extremely hard to make and even more expensive.

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Re: Rapture

Post by Tylertlat on Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:21 am

Kasrkin Seath wrote: It would not be easier to protect against. A large wave in the the water is going to hit the structure with quite a bit of force, you can't make it magically disappear. It is much much harder to try and lengthen the time in which it is applied over as well(which is basically what structures on land do)

Yes there's a lot of force behind the way but that force is disperced by a lot of mass. Tidal waves do their damage when that force isn't disipated by that mass as they move into shallows, otherwise how could coral survive? Anyway, you can move away from faults by using alternative sources of electricity, such as nuclear power, or nano-solar painted bouys.
-----
Kasrkin Seath wrote: Supplies, supplies, supplies... Hydroponics basically sprays nutrients. Nutrients are made from stuff. You still rely on outside supplies.

Well your in a closed system, so if you recycle, you still have all the nutrients you need. They aren't gonning anywhere, so you don't need to replace them. Just fertalize the soil and rotate the crops. At most, you'd need a few years of supplies to prime the system.

Kasrkin Seath wrote: fishing with a sub would be much more difficult.
Besides, where are you going to get said sub and people to operate it?

Not that i'm big on the fishing subs, but if you had multiple battery-powered subs (manned by inhabitants of the city) towing a net, you could hunt schools of fish (or other swarms of aquatic creatures). Perhaps we can learn from shamoo on this matter, his friends have an easy enough time of it...
-----
Kasrkin Seath wrote: No, not materials, it had design. It was small and compact, which was what allowed it's design to work. A city is large, and since there are basically no easy designs that would work you have to rely off of a really good material in this case.

We've been building geodesics for decades, and domes for centuries. The technology is here, and the material problem isn't insurmountble. Perhaps an outer shell, a dome composed of massive preformed reinforce concrete bricks towed over the site on barges, the interior of this structure (or connected structures) then being pumped out and living-buildings built within? (im sure that plan has some problems but i though of it in 5 seconds in the early morning)
-----
Kasrkin Seath wrote: Explain how gangs would form.

Yes, someone explain why we not only have gangs, but gangs motivated to directly challange the authority over territory.


Kasrkin Seath wrote: You are still failing to adress what the purpose of said city would be. We are looking at something that is barely even doable by today's standards, would be extremely hard to make and even more expensive.

Well the seabeds are some of the last claimed places on Earth, so it's may be the last place you could establish a new nation-state, or even city-state. It would also be one of the safest places for said endever, as it invasion shouldn't be appealing to a foreign power. Also as I stated earlier, this could be a stepping stone for an extraterrestrial colonization attempt, working out the kinks where your days or hours away from help, rather than months or years. And yes, is by some chance we actually did mess up the earth (which despite what sensationalist psuedo-science says, is a very small chance) we could concievable use such a place to "return to the sea" as it were.


Last edited by Tylertlat on Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:31 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : basic formatting errors)
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Re: Rapture

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:27 am

I can conceive of no situation where we would have to 'flee into the sea'.

Anyhow, while nutrients would be easy to replenish, replacement parts and structural support would NOT. You would be dependent on the surface for such things, raw steel, pig iron, whatever you use.
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Re: Rapture

Post by Tylertlat on Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:51 pm

Let's take a step back. You would be hard pressed to find a modern, self-sufficient city. Why are we demanding This underwater city be so (completely self sufficient)?
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Re: Rapture

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:40 pm

Tylertlat wrote:Let's take a step back. You would be hard pressed to find a modern, self-sufficient city. Why are we demanding This underwater city be so (completely self sufficient)?
Because it would have to be.
"If the Pirates of the Carribean ride breaks down, the pirates don't eat the passengers."

Living underwater would be much less forgiving than living above ground. Not to mention these guys are passing off apocalyptic endtimes as excuses to build such a place, which would mean all your support is cut off.
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Re: Rapture

Post by Yam Head on Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:59 pm

I'd go for the Vault 101 path, no matter how depressing being locked in a vault for all time seems.


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Re: Rapture

Post by MrX on Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:33 pm

Yam Head wrote:I'd go for the Vault 101 path, no matter how depressing being locked in a vote for all time seems.

*looks at yams avatar*
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Re: Rapture

Post by Yam Head on Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:25 pm

sargentbilco wrote:
Yam Head wrote:I'd go for the Vault 101 path, no matter how depressing being locked in a vote for all time seems.

*looks at yams avatar*

I havent stopped looking at yours...
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Re: Rapture

Post by Gauz on Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:54 pm

sargentbilco wrote:
Yam Head wrote:I'd go for the Vault 101 path, no matter how depressing being locked in a vote for all time seems.

*looks at yams avatar*
*looks at bilcos*
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Re: Rapture

Post by Tylertlat on Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:56 pm

Gauz wrote:
sargentbilco wrote:
Yam Head wrote:I'd go for the Vault 101 path, no matter how depressing being locked in a vote for all time seems.

*looks at yams avatar*
*looks at bilcos*
*looks at all both avatars
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Re: Rapture

Post by dragoon9105 on Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:19 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:I can conceive of no situation where we would have to 'flee into the sea'.

Anyhow, while nutrients would be easy to replenish, replacement parts and structural support would NOT. You would be dependent on the surface for such things, raw steel, pig iron, whatever you use.

Given enough space you can in theory forge iron and steel underwater, and the excess heat can be used to contribute to power, and the waste from it could be disposed of it in other ways.

Mining the resources themselves under water sounds more complex i guess in theory you could scavenge and recycle the countless wrecks of ships along the ocean bottom until some sort of underwater mine could get working but that doesn't sound like it would work well.

And yes, running to the oceans as some sort of refugee isn't a viable idea considering almost every type of apocalypse would make the oceans unlivable for a while anyway. (Global warming has more effects on the oceans than just the surface, they would become rather lifeless if it got too crazy, and then on a larger scale would boil away completely, and something like a nuclear holocaust would turn most of the seas into rather nasty places) You would be better off building a 'floating' city' which would probably look something like an aircraft carrier crossed with a cruise ship and scaled up several times.

Colonizing another planet sounds like a better long term plan over colonizing our oceans.
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Re: Rapture

Post by Rotaretilbo on Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:58 pm

Two year old thread is two years old.

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Re: Rapture

Post by dragoon9105 on Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:03 pm

meh someone revived it so i put my input.
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Re: Rapture

Post by KrAzY on Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:05 pm

I don't think the Rapture is going to happen in 2011

or ever
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Re: Rapture

Post by Gauz on Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:42 pm

I think you're opinion is saaaaack!
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Re: Rapture

Post by Lord Pheonix on Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:43 pm

It happens when I say it happens

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Re: Rapture

Post by Felix on Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:46 pm

Gauz wrote:I think you're opinion is saaaaack!

Best argument ever.
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Re: Rapture

Post by Ringleader on Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:07 am

A floating city would be preferable, it's unlikely that the entire planet will ever be in such a state of disrepair that no point on it would be unsuitable for human habitation above the surface of the ocean. Most of the ocean's biosphere (food) is limited to the uppermost levels as well.

If the planet gets too hot, sail it towards the poles, which would be more temperate. Too cold? Migrate towards the equator. Picture vast open spaces inside, simulating the various environments, we could preserve all life in the hopes that the planet may one day recover.

It's been thought up be futurists in the past, they envision large, hexagonal, interlocking city blocks on floats that can reconfigure themselves if needed.





A city on the surface would probably be easier to maintain too, wouldn't have to deal with the same level of compression as underwater. Solar power, in conjunction with hydroelectric, wind and maybe even geothermal if you could get it close enough to a volcanic area. Nuclear power too. If the air outside isn't suitable for breathing, you could always cover the surface of this city in a transparent bubble, or find other means to purify the air. A combination of various city types would probably be the best route to take in such a situation, though it's not likely that a large portion of our population will be able to find refuge in them, given the limited space and lack of resources.
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Re: Rapture

Post by Tylertlat on Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:06 am

Well, if we're going with cool floating cities of the past, we can't negelect to consider Pykrete in the design.

And
Airships have always been cool, just food and water that becomes a problem.
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Re: Rapture

Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:33 pm

The problem with a city on the surface is that if it's too large, bad weather would really seriously effect it. It would either have to be solidly connected with the sea floor and deal with flooding or be free floating and deal with bad shit.

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Re: Rapture

Post by TNine on Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:13 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:The problem with a city on the surface is that if it's too large, bad weather would really seriously effect it. It would either have to be solidly connected with the sea floor and deal with flooding or be free floating and deal with bad shit.
I feel like there are ways to overcome this. A roof could help deal with hurricanes, and if the city was big enough what could threaten it? Harsh conditions? Bring up the walls a little to keep shit out. Storm Surge? A serious problem, but the city could be build to flow with it or ignore it, sure it won't just shrug it off but it's hardly like we shrug it off now anyway.

Of course, if we are dealing with the Rapture then the weather could get really bad. But i find it unlikely that all land everywhere can be covered with water, there simply isn't that much water available.
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Re: Rapture

Post by Lord Pheonix on Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:33 pm

TNine wrote:Of course, if we are dealing with the Rapture then the weather could get really bad. But i find it unlikely that all land everywhere can be covered with water, there simply isn't that much water available.



So in the event that Space Lord Pheonix decided to magically wizard everyone away into a magical land where all the good people of the world go to live for eternity with the being that created everything that was, is, and ever was in the entire universe - your problem is that there isn't enough water to fill the world?


That's the straw there?

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Re: Rapture

Post by TNine on Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:54 pm

Lord Pheonix wrote:
TNine wrote:Of course, if we are dealing with the Rapture then the weather could get really bad. But i find it unlikely that all land everywhere can be covered with water, there simply isn't that much water available.



So in the event that Space Lord Pheonix decided to magically wizard everyone away into a magical land where all the good people of the world go to live for eternity with the being that created everything that was, is, and ever was in the entire universe - your problem is that there isn't enough water to fill the world?


That's the straw there?
So the water is being created through magic? I figured that the people were being vanished through magic to magic, not that the entire world was going to end because the laws of physics were fucked.

If the laws of physics are going to be fucked, then a floating city won't help: nothing will.
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Re: Rapture

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