Pearl Harbor

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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by dragoon9105 on Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:54 pm

They did destroy the much more limited equipment with the weapons designed to do so. Planes at the time carried 1 or two explosive weapons, After that they had machine guns which are only good for strafing runs.
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by BBJynne on Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:24 pm

TNine wrote:If the attack wasn't morally justified, than what kind of justified was it?


Japanese attack on pearl harbor was justice, but their behavior in the war at large was not.

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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by Lord Pheonix on Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:36 pm

BBJynne wrote:



From my favorite manga btw

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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by Rotaretilbo on Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:38 am

dragoon9105 wrote:They did destroy the much more limited equipment with the weapons designed to do so. Planes at the time carried 1 or two explosive weapons, After that they had machine guns which are only good for strafing runs.

They destroyed a handful of ships and aircraft. They could have done a lot more damage strafing more aircraft, the dry docks, and other key targets, rather than shooting sailors offering no resistance. From an efficiency standpoint, staying to shoot unarmed soldiers is a waste of time and increases the chance of casualties on your side. And for a resource-deprived nation like Japan, it would also be a waste of lead.

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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by RX on Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:59 am

I'll have to agree with NT on this one.
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by KristallNacht on Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:31 am

The escort zeros had nothing to do but strafe. The dive bombers and torpedo bombers had designated targets. The planned third wave was to hit the fuel and dry docks but the decision was made not to have it happen due to lack of knowledge of the whereabouts of the rest of the pacific fleet.

So, are the escort zeros supposed to just sit around doing nothing? or strafe the fuck out of everything?
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by Rotaretilbo on Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:31 am

Let's see...waste ammo on unarmed sailors who are no threat and of so little consequence as not to be worth the bullets, or conserve ammo for possible USAF retaliation that may result in destruction of equipment and loss of personnel? That's a really difficult decision, there.

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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by KristallNacht on Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:52 am

yup....cause the USAF existed in 1941......and they work with the Navy, too, huh?


Not sure if trolling, or just really stupid....
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by Rotaretilbo on Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:55 am

You know full and well what I meant, NT. Whether it was its own branch or not, the United States operated these things called aircraft, and we occasionally used them to shoot at other aircraft. That's why the bombers were escorted by Zeroes in the first place: to protect them from other aircraft, not to strafe unarmed sailors flailing about in the ocean.

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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by KristallNacht on Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:00 am

nearly all of which were grounded and most already destroyed and runways scattered with debris, so with no enemy air on scene until well into the second wave of fighters, and even then it was minimal. Not much more than the planes that were patrolling the islands when the attack came.

and seeing as not everything was close together, there wasn't always a more important target to shoot at....so the pilots could either fly around not fighting a war, or they could engage the enemy.
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by Rotaretilbo on Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:46 am

Because obviously one should never be prepared for a threat that is possible but not immediately present. The Japanese had no way of knowing if or when aircraft support would be present.

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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by dragoon9105 on Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:49 pm

Yes we all heard stories about how our vast 1941 air force with technologically advanced planes that could appear within an hour and completely decimate the any surprise aerial attack.

Yea the Japanese were not scared of a few dozen outdated fighters.
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by Rotaretilbo on Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:53 pm

Point stands, drag. If they didn't expect resistance from our aircraft, those fighter escorts would not have been there to begin with.

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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by Nocbl2 on Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:49 pm

They probably just threw them in there as a precaution.
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by KristallNacht on Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:56 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:Point stands, drag. If they didn't expect resistance from our aircraft, those fighter escorts would not have been there to begin with.

except the fighters were there for if the attack wasn't a surprise attack...which it was....so now there wasn't really anything for them to do. And there is no reason that a pilot can't strafe some shit, scan the skies....strafe some shit, scan the skies.
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by TNine on Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:13 pm

dragoon9105 wrote:Yes we all heard stories about how our vast 1941 air force with technologically advanced planes that could appear within an hour and completely decimate the any surprise aerial attack.

Yea the Japanese were not scared of a few dozen outdated fighters.
Then why retreat at all? It is doubtful that the fragments of the US Navy not at Pearl Harbor could have launched a serious counter to the Japanese fleet in the region, if the aircraft couldn't be a threat than what was?

Regardless, even if there was no other possible threat, there was definitely better targets available than the helpless and, overall, insignificant sailors in the ocean.
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:35 am

like?

and there was no retreat, since the Japanese had no intention of claiming the island in the first place.
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by TNine on Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:57 pm

KristallNacht wrote:like?

and there was no retreat, since the Japanese had no intention of claiming the island in the first place.
They were supposed to launch three waves right? And they only launched two? I could swear someone mentioned it in this thread.
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:13 pm

I'd also like to point out that the systematic extermination of a populace to claim its resources is probably the single most inefficient way to lay claim to resources possible. This is because, if the local population is gone, the only way to actually take advantage of the captured resources is through mass migration. The whole thing would be incredibly unstable from an economic standpoint for decades. Probably the most efficient method would be to absorb the locals and let the Japanese slowly migrate in. In a perfect system, you would slowly eliminate the locals as more Japanese migrated in to create openings in an existing economic system until, eventually, the Japanese constitute the entire system.

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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by BBJynne on Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:42 pm

Obviously the Japanese attacked to get the pearls.
Heavy risk, but so many people to kill, and pearls only can occur when blood enters salt water and irritates a clam, so clearly the general mission of the attack was to drop clams from the zeros while bombing the ships to generate a hefty supply of blood. By this attack, the Japanese in fact enriched Honolulu by increasing its number of valuable stones.

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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by KristallNacht on Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:48 am

TNine wrote:
KristallNacht wrote:like?

and there was no retreat, since the Japanese had no intention of claiming the island in the first place.
They were supposed to launch three waves right? And they only launched two? I could swear someone mentioned it in this thread.

yes but the third wave still wasn't an invasion force.

Rotaretilbo wrote:I'd also like to point out that the systematic extermination of a populace to claim its resources is probably the single most inefficient way to lay claim to resources possible. This is because, if the local population is gone, the only way to actually take advantage of the captured resources is through mass migration. The whole thing would be incredibly unstable from an economic standpoint for decades. Probably the most efficient method would be to absorb the locals and let the Japanese slowly migrate in. In a perfect system, you would slowly eliminate the locals as more Japanese migrated in to create openings in an existing economic system until, eventually, the Japanese constitute the entire system.

except when there's already too many japanese in japan...
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by dragoon9105 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:20 pm

They tried the slow migration plan with Korea, It took them several hundred years remember. Time the Japanese leaders did not have if they were to "CONQUER THE WORLD" like they thought they were going to at some point with their allies.

Also the third wave was to destroy allied fuel supplies to further cripple the fleet. However they barely had enough fuel at that point to make the journey back home. And any remaining in reserve would be needed in case the American carriers showed up and delivered some swift Airborn justice. Their biggest mistake in the war considering an Army marches on its supplies and they left ours completely untouched while wasting many of theirs just to destroy some outdated warships.
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by BBJynne on Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:57 pm

Not launching the third wave during the Pearl Harbor raid:
dragoon9105 wrote:Their biggest mistake in the war

the Japanese made some serious errors in some of the major battles (midway was more vital, among others)

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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by dragoon9105 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:58 pm

If the Japanese destroyed the fuel facilities and shipyard facilities at pearl harbor it would no longer be able to function effectively as a naval base. Without our base in Hawaii we could not function half as well as we did in the pacific and repairing it would take time. Pearl as a base still functioned after the attack, A third wave would have made it unusable until repairs were made and supplies arrived by boat.
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Re: Pearl Harbor

Post by Rotaretilbo on Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:29 pm

dragoon9105 wrote:They tried the slow migration plan with Korea, It took them several hundred years remember.

Hardly comparable. The Japanese never controlled Korea for any extended period of time, so slow migration could not be effectively achieved. And point stands, wiping out the existing population and settling there causes massive instability to the local economy and the economy back home. Japan may have been crowded, but their economy worked. You can't just pick up half the population, all of whom have jobs and houses, and move them into China, and say "get to work".

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Re: Pearl Harbor

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