Gay Marriage

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by KrAzY on Tue May 22, 2012 5:18 pm

Nobody is arguing that everybody shouldn't enjoy the same privileges as everybody else in this country legally.

so, if we are agreeing that a civil union and a marriage are the SAME THING, which if they have the same legal and financial benefits they are. we can agree that Civil Union = Marriage

so lets throw away the word marriage for the time being, It's gone


we ALL agree that civil unions should be allowed between any two consenting adults legally, regardless of religious views we all think that this is a fine and dandy thing. Nobody here thinks it is a good or fair thing that seths map shows all of the states that ban it outright.


and yet everyone is still arguing

BECAUSE THIS ARGUMENT IS ABOUT SEMANTICS

put civil union on the damn piece of paper that everybody has to sign and let them call it what ever the fuck they want beyond that. Someone could say marriage, someone could say civil union, someone could call it a bumbldyfuck.

make it all the same word on paper and let the people call it whatever they want after the fact, that gets rid of the stupid semantic argument.



it is such a Lord Pheonix damn stupid argument, seriously. If religion doesn't want the word marriage for gay couples, then change the word for everybody to something else. nothing can stop someone from still calling it a marriage, the only place it changes is on the legal slip
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Lord Pheonix on Tue May 22, 2012 5:33 pm

Could just let it be the word "marriage" and tell Religion to take a nice cup of man the fuck up and get over it.


Nothing can stop them from calling what the gays do something else.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by KrAzY on Tue May 22, 2012 10:53 pm

well, since religious people hold a staunch majority over non-religious people in the country as a whole if you want to actually accomplish anything you can't just tell religious people to shove off.

people constantly equate gay rights to womans rights and civil rights movements, here is where the main problems arise. Womans and civil rights were lead by conservatives (contrary to what popular media says) I won't say republicans here, since the current republican party is about as liberal as moderate democrats, just on different issues. they understood that you can't get everything you want all at once, which is why both civil rights and womans rights took a LONG TIME to get fully integrated into society... but even if it took a long time it is easier to climb a mountain with lots of small stairs than climb up a sheer cliff.

in my opinion, if gays REALLY want to get equal rights without fighting (which WILL take longer because Neo-conservitaves LOVE to fight issues like these) they need to take it in smaller chunks. get civil unions accepted across the board. then get civil unions to get the same benefits as marriage, THEN get the scemantics of calling it marriage out of the way.

but liberals are impatient and are going to fight for everything at once which will make it never happen. (not opinion here, look at any issue between Neo-cons (who are also impatient) and liberals... they never go anywhere)

things can only happen when both sides compromise, and if you are going for all-or-nothing then neither side will ever want to compromise.



what I suggested before was a way to go for all-or nothing because once legal civil-unions are seperated from the word marriage, religion has no claim over it and they CAN'T argue against it, at that point the only way for them to get the word marriage back would be to change back the legal word civil-union to marriage, which would change it for everybody.

but my biggest question is, if the word marriage is what is causing all of the fighting, why the fuck would people who want things to actually progress forward cling on to it? you may love the shiny anchor on the yacht next to you, but if you try to take it before you have a boat to stand on you are just going to drown yourself.

also remember, all of this argument is simply for the word next to the dotted line on the legal papers, as people are going to call it marriage no matter what happens. in one situation you call it marriage, all of the religious people are unhappy, gays are happy (takes forever to actually happen). in the other you call it civil-union for everybody, everybody is unhappy (happens fast and because everybody is unhappy change is easy from here)


Last edited by KrAzY on Tue May 22, 2012 11:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by CivBase on Tue May 22, 2012 11:06 pm

Please forgive me if I sounded a little conceded in my first post. Because this is a state-level issue I don't know as much about the situation in other states as I do in Iowa and, frankly, the "Gay Rights" movement in Iowa has become almost as retarded as the feminist movement or Peta. Almost.

Not only is everything legal for them here, but they're also a protected class and maintain an absurd amount of legal entitlement.

Like I said before, everything is fine on the federal level and I don't think they should make any changes to it. It's the states that need looked at.



LP, very few Christians hate homosexuals because of their beliefs. Most churches call their congregations to do the exact opposite - to love them all the more. The ones who do are a vocal minority.

In fact, I'd probably go as far as to say that most of the action against that minority comes from religious people who are sick of idiots giving Christianity a bad name. I'd even say that the popularity of their ignorant message is spread almost entirely by prejudice atheists rather than intolerant Christians.



Back on track. The underlying question of the entire debate is not whether homosexuals should be granted equal 'rights', but whether or not marriage is a religious or secular idea.

As I've already said, I think that the easiest solution, one that several homosexuals I know agree with, is for the government to abandon incorporating marriage into the legal system and instead treat all legally-influential relationships as civil unions. People can still call it whatever they want. We effectively already do this, but we call both the religious and legal relationships 'marriage' instead of using separate terms. Though this idea, homosexuals would get the rights they want and religions would be able to continuously support marriage in a religious sense without any conflict.

I've said it several times and KrAzY has likewise pushed this point: it's just semantics.

What scares me most is that one of our biggest political topics in the US government right now is primarily about semantics and how they influence a very small minority. Yah, it's an issue, but in light of everything else why is it one of our primary concerns?



So, what kind of rights are homosexuals missing in other states? Actual rights being denied to homosexuals, including those directly resulting from a lack of legal union. Aren't civil unions still attainable at the federal level, regardless of state laws?

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Gauz on Wed May 23, 2012 3:36 pm

Same-sex civil unions are not recognized at a federal level, therefore are subject to state jurisdiction.


An overwhelming amount of states ban not only same-sex marriage, but also any form of same-sex union.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by CivBase on Wed May 23, 2012 3:42 pm

Alright. Does anyone here think States should ban civil unions?

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Rotaretilbo on Wed May 23, 2012 4:35 pm

I hear that Arizona passes all sorts of crazy laws, but I've practically given up on politics in the States. I basically agree with everything KrAzY, Rasq, and Civ said.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Angatar on Wed May 23, 2012 4:57 pm

CivBase wrote:Alright. Does anyone here think States should ban civil unions?
They should just give them marriage.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Rotaretilbo on Wed May 23, 2012 5:16 pm

Angatar wrote:They should just give them marriage.

Did you even bother reading KrAzY's like three big posts about why this mantra of "fuck the opposition" is why nothing gets done? Neoconservatives and hardcore religious groups are never going to just lay down and die because you disagree with them, and right now, they have what they want, so prolonging the issue is just what they want. If people want change, they can't take the exact same approach that the neoconservatives are taking, or they're playing right into their hands.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Angatar on Wed May 23, 2012 5:24 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Angatar wrote:They should just give them marriage.

Did you even bother reading KrAzY's like three big posts about why this mantra of "fuck the opposition" is why nothing gets done? Neoconservatives and hardcore religious groups are never going to just lay down and die because you disagree with them, and right now, they have what they want, so prolonging the issue is just what they want. If people want change, they can't take the exact same approach that the neoconservatives are taking, or they're playing right into their hands.
Yes I did, and I do not believe that they would allow marriage to be lowered to civil unions, same as they won't allow civil unions to be raised to marriages.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by dragoon9105 on Wed May 23, 2012 5:56 pm

A good compromise should leave nobody happy in the end, people forget that, people also forget when nature runs it course the result is often much worse than if they just sat down and worked it out. Lock the house and senate in congress for two weeks with no outside contact, they will come to an agreement pity nobody thought to include that as a presidential power.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Gauz on Wed May 23, 2012 7:05 pm

Honestly it should just go to the Supreme Court. I'm sure they'd rule not allowing same-sex marriages as unconstitutional and make it federal law to allow it.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by KrAzY on Wed May 23, 2012 7:28 pm

thats not how government works Gauz
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by TNine on Wed May 23, 2012 7:31 pm

Lord Pheonix wrote:It is currently legal to marry your first cousin in more states than it is to marry another man/woman.

How can you claim that gay marriage is okay and marrying your first cousin, or really any matter of incest, is not? As a proponent of gay marriage myself, what difference do you see in the union of man and man as opposed to the union of brother and sister?
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Lord Pheonix on Wed May 23, 2012 8:03 pm

The genetic retardation of the child produced.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by KrAzY on Wed May 23, 2012 8:18 pm

yeah... I don't think there is any way to argue for siblings getting married.... I know that the argument for gay marriage is that it is "unnatural" so I don't like to use that for this... but it IS unnatural, so unnatural that it does terrible genetic things to the offspring.

bringing up legal incest doesn't really help either sides argument, so lets just drop that one... if you really want to discuss it you can start a thread about it, but im not sure anyone will participate
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by TNine on Wed May 23, 2012 8:41 pm

Lord Pheonix wrote:The genetic retardation of the child produced.
As opposed to the perfectly normal offspring produced by gay couples, i presume?

KrAzY wrote:yeah... I don't think there is any way to argue for siblings getting married.... I know that the argument for gay marriage is that it is "unnatural" so I don't like to use that for this... but it IS unnatural, so unnatural that it does terrible genetic things to the offspring.
That's the crux of the argument. Incest isn't much more "unnatural" than gay marriage. The offspring is more likely to inherit a genetic disease...but that's also true of woman over 35. Should we stop them from having kids too? What of incestuous couples that use contraceptives and adopt children instead?

KrAzY wrote:bringing up legal incest doesn't really help either sides argument, so lets just drop that one... if you really want to discuss it you can start a thread about it, but im not sure anyone will participate
It's easy to look an argument that supports your cause and call it logical. You have to look at it from all angles. If you disagree with an argument because it is made for something you disagree with, you can't claim to be right.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by CivBase on Wed May 23, 2012 9:07 pm

Nobody supports legal incest. That's why KrAzY said your point doesn't work.

You can't say "why are you for A and not B when A is clearly worse?" if the person you're talking to isn't for A.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by KrAzY on Wed May 23, 2012 9:11 pm

well, despite the terrible overarching moral problems of incest. a big problem is that people could use it to financially exploit the system. since married couples are given tax breaks and other accomidations (for joining assets) imagine what a family with billions of dollars that didn't want any of it to leave the family could end up doing? marry all of children to eachother, get massive tax-breaks, and then produce genetically abhorrent offspring.

i'm not 100% informed of all of the benefits that married couples recieve, but it would be unfair to give that to closed family groups

a common theme for inbred animals are psycopathic behavior and super aggressiveness and violence... happens in dogs after only 2 generations of inbreeding, genetic mutations happen right away
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Wed May 23, 2012 9:28 pm

KrAzY wrote:well, despite the terrible overarching moral problems of incest. a big problem is that people could use it to financially exploit the system. since married couples are given tax breaks and other accomidations (for joining assets) imagine what a family with billions of dollars that didn't want any of it to leave the family could end up doing? marry all of children to eachother, get massive tax-breaks, and then produce genetically abhorrent offspring.

i'm not 100% informed of all of the benefits that married couples recieve, but it would be unfair to give that to closed family groups

a common theme for inbred animals are psycopathic behavior and super aggressiveness and violence... happens in dogs after only 2 generations of inbreeding, genetic mutations happen right away
Although I'm not sure about the first point, because it sounds pretty blooming unlikely, I think that last point is limited to breeds that already have shallow gene pools. Coming from a family where all the females were equestrians at one point or another, a lot of horses have family trees that resemble a game of chutes and ladders, and genetic defects aren't that common.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Nocbl2 on Wed May 23, 2012 9:31 pm

With the incest, they are actually capable of causing a problem (retards, four legged people, etc) whereas gays don't cause a problem except among themselves (and only if they are stupid about it).

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by KrAzY on Wed May 23, 2012 9:33 pm

I think it was in greyhounds, so they would have had a pretty tight breeding pool already so you are probably right.

however on my first point, if there is a loophole to save money people will use it, people ALREADY do it for regular marriage. if brothers and sisters could marry then a divorce wouldn't even result in split assets leaving a family, if any system had a chance of being exploited, it would be that
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Lord Pheonix on Wed May 23, 2012 9:39 pm

TNine wrote:That's the crux of the argument. Incest isn't much more "unnatural" than gay marriage. The offspring is more likely to inherit a genetic disease...but that's also true of woman over 35. Should we stop them from having kids too? What of incestuous couples that use contraceptives and adopt children instead?

I could, but I really refuse to argue the pros and cons of incest. That is just a discussion I wish to never have to have with another human being north of the Mason Dixon line.



If you want to fuck your sister man: all you bro, all you.


Just please keep it in Alabama.




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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by CivBase on Wed May 23, 2012 10:03 pm

CivBase wrote:Nobody supports legal incest. That's why KrAzY said your point doesn't work.

You can't say "why are you for A and not B when A is clearly worse?" if the person you're talking to isn't for A.

This. Again. Can we drop the incest discussion and get back on topic?

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by KrAzY on Wed May 23, 2012 10:07 pm

yes, please drop the incest, or take it to a new topic


continue arguing semantics
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Re: Gay Marriage

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