Presidential Race

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Which of the two candidates do you favor (or hate least)?

48% 48% 
[ 11 ]
17% 17% 
[ 4 ]
35% 35% 
[ 8 ]
 
Total Votes : 23

Re: Presidential Race

Post by KrAzY on Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:10 am

the dumbest part about this argument is that everyone here agrees with each other and yet neither of you actually reads eachothers posts so you dont know that you all agree.

its just one big semantic argument where everyone is on the same side except for 1 word
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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:32 am

KrAzY wrote: the dumbest part about this argument is that everyone here agrees with each other and yet neither of you actually reads eachothers posts so you dont know that you all agree.

its just one big semantic argument where everyone is on the same side except for 1 word

That is what makes it a fun argument though.

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:42 pm

dragoon9105 wrote:If Romney shut up about all the Social issues that shouldn't be touched like Gay Marriage Abortion ect He probably would win the Election. But saying your against abortion is political suicide, I think he forgot Women have the right to vote.
Straw... voter?
Anyhow, not all women are Pro-Choice.

Saying something completely stupid like "Women can shut down pregnancies in cases of legitimate rape" is putting the gun to your head and pulling the trigger, though.

dragoon9105 wrote:Also his little Freakout in one of those interviews, The one with the Gay WW2 vet i think it was, certainty counted against him, he looked like he wanted to jump into an acid bath. Generally you want a strong president not someone who is going to jump out of their skin if a Diplomat is gay because they are homophobic.
Never seen it.

dragoon9105 wrote:Obama has the Right stance on Social Issues and has the whole Robot thing going for him but the fact is he didn't instantly make everything better in his first two years in office counts against him somehow.


Anyhow, what robot thing?

dragoon9105 wrote:Fixing the Economy requires a Cause and effect/Trial and Error process where leadership tries different things and see if they help or hurt, Computer models still cant accurately predict people so anyone who tells you an Economic plan is going to work 100% is wrong.
*claps*

dragoon9105 wrote:And Rich people have no Excuse, 30% of their pay is more than some of their employees combined make in a year, or you know all their Chinese employees combined make in forever.
You make what you earn (Won't deny that there's exceptions). If someone heads a company that prevents other companies from going bankrupt and reduces the number of lost jobs overall, I'd say he's earned a fat wad of cash.

I personally think that the China Problem is going to take care of itself in a decade, thanks to the 4-2-1 problem. Wouldn't mind measure put in place to prevent outsourcing though.

I'd advocate a flat income tax.

dragoon9105 wrote:Of the top of my head, As i said the Dams and Roadways could use some work
Build more Powerplants Mainly solar and Wind, This will make power cheaper thus people have more money (Mainly the middle class)
Go nuclear.

dragoon9105 wrote:Rebuild Build a Giant Wall along the Border, Of Canada
...
Change that to Mexico and factor in a revamp of our immigration policies, and I'll agree.

dragoon9105 wrote:Build more Electric and Bullet trains around the Country, Lessen our reliance of Air Travel and Sea Cargo Transport
That's an Economic Plan i can get behind, not "Damn Democrats" "Backwards Republicans!"
Query whether electric/bullet trains would be a net loss, requiring subsidies from the Government to keep going.
We could definitely use more railways in the United States, and investing in existing infrastructure to increase capacity would be a winner too.

dragoon9105 wrote:Saying your cutting Everyones Taxes means its a tax cut for the Rich, even 1% off the rich is much more money lost than if the Poor and middle class were cut.
Source?

dragoon9105 wrote:And no, Romney's stance is Medicare is going to collapse so hes replacing it with a Voucher system, If he simply Added a voucher system yet keep medicare in place nobody would use the retarded voucher system and it would still fail.
It depends on what the benefits are.
Anyhow, what's YOUR plan for preventing Medicare's collapse?

dragoon9105 wrote:And no Abortion is suicide to Touch, Gay Marriage fine but any self respecting woman shouldn't vote for Romney as he is blatantly saying he is taking away their rights.
Ah, so you're saying that women SHOULD see it as a right. Makes more sense, but still wrong.

Again, many women view the fetus as having a life, or simply don't see it as an issue that affects them.
Anyhow, this is interesting.

dragoon9105 wrote:And heres the Ticket Romney nor Obama can actually do anything with Abortion, Its a Right as said by the Supreme Court all they could do is have the supreme court look up another Abortion case to review which they will promptly shoot down with "We already looked it over" In fact Romney would be smart not to even try as when you give the Supreme court to review anything they may turn around and say Abortion doesn't need to be restricted the same way Obama doesn't try to remove the restrictions on it and accidentally have it banned again. The buggers have done it before, They are in for life unlike some annoying windbag that's only in for four years thus dont have to worry about getting re-elected, they can do anything they want.
Query: Has Romney OR Obama ran on abortion?
*crickets*

No. They are pro/anti, but it doesn't factor into their campaign.

Vigil wrote:So as an outsider I have to ask this.

Why on earth does anybody want Romney to be president? I knew Obama's popularity has fallen but damn.
Well, Obama has shown himself to be Bush 1.50.
And, uh, doubling the nation's debt in one term doesn't go over too hot. Yeah, sure, a lot of the current debt is interest on the Reagan-Bush I years, but the Democrats kind of contributed with the whole recession.

Yeah. The housing crisis goes back to 'reforms' passed by Democratic congresses.

So, despite promising that it would be the first thing he'd do, Obama never got around to withdrawing from Afghanistan, and Iraq took ages. He didn't cut spending when he extended the Bush Tax Cuts in 2010, even though the spending cuts are what made the tax cuts fail in the first place.

Could go on, but class starts in ten minutes.

Vigil wrote:Romney may have 'won' this debate, but do you seriously think he's a viable candidate? Am I missing something here?
Lets put it this way. We have three options:

Option A:


Option B:
Anybody else. Please.

Option C:


KrAzY wrote: the dumbest part about this argument is that everyone here agrees with each other and yet neither of you actually reads eachothers posts so you dont know that you all agree.

its just one big semantic argument where everyone is on the same side except for 1 word
Have a cookie. You earned it.
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Re: Presidential Race

Post by KristallNacht on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:18 pm

KristallNach wrote:
I'm just gonna keep giving examples of Civ's logic, cause it's just plain stupid.

"It's illegal to have dark skin"

It applies to everyone. Nobody, regardless of race has the right to have dark skin....so its not discriminating.

"It's illegal to have dark skin" = "It's illegal to be homosexual"

Your cute little metaphor you guys keep bringing out? It doesn't work.
or "It's illegal to BE married to someone of the same gender" the concept is, it applies to everyone, so it can't be discrimination, right?
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Re: Presidential Race

Post by KristallNacht on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:32 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:


Anyhow, what robot thing?

1. Gitmo had no reason to be closed.

2. Afghanistan needed to be escalated because there weren't enough troops there in the first place.

3. In the Administered Tribal Areas of Pakistan the line is VERY blurred between civilian and Militant. The people that would say they were all civilians are the same that would say that everyone that died in Iraq was an innocent civilian killed by the US. Ntm those drone strikes were confirmed as taking out some 5 of the Al Queda second in command.....(shit job nobody should apply for, apparently)

4. That thing was shit and was also still approved by congress and MANY americans.

5. That whole thing was blown WAY out of proportion.

6. That is an issue, but what does 'due process' really mean in this context?

7-whatever are all legitimate.



my point: Many people like to fall for sensationalized stories as opposed to getting statistics.
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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Elabajaba on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:33 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Option C:


I'll take this option, please.

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Rotaretilbo on Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:16 pm

KristallNacht wrote:1. Gitmo had no reason to be closed.

The point is that he promised to close Gitmo. People gave Bush all manner of shit about it, Obama promises to close it, and the he doesn't.

KristallNacht wrote:2. Afghanistan needed to be escalated because there weren't enough troops there in the first place.

Again, Bush gets all manner of shit for escalating a war, Obama promises not to, and then he does.

KristallNacht wrote:3. In the Administered Tribal Areas of Pakistan the line is VERY blurred between civilian and Militant. The people that would say they were all civilians are the same that would say that everyone that died in Iraq was an innocent civilian killed by the US. Ntm those drone strikes were confirmed as taking out some 5 of the Al Queda second in command.....(shit job nobody should apply for, apparently)

But, again, Bush got all manner of shit regarding the blur between civilian and militant, Obama promised change, and then his change was to do more of what Bush did.

KristallNacht wrote:4. That thing was shit and was also still approved by congress and MANY americans.

Obama had to jump through a dozen hoops to get his own party's supermajority to sign off on the bill. From my understanding, polls regarding the issue pretty much universally indicated that a majority of Americans did not like the bill.

KristallNacht wrote:5. That whole thing was blown WAY out of proportion.

No more so than Hurricane Katrina was.

KristallNacht wrote:6. That is an issue, but what does 'due process' really mean in this context?

It means that the government must respect all legal rights that a person is obligated to. Being able to assassinate whomever he pleases isn't exactly respectful to the rights of US citizens.

KristallNacht wrote:7-whatever are all legitimate.

But, again, Bush got tons of shit over the whole Patriot Act thing, Obama promises change, and then he goes a step further?

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Vigil on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:03 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Well, Obama has shown himself to be Bush 1.50.
And, uh, doubling the nation's debt in one term doesn't go over too hot. Yeah, sure, a lot of the current debt is interest on the Reagan-Bush I years, but the Democrats kind of contributed with the whole recession.

Yeah. The housing crisis goes back to 'reforms' passed by Democratic congresses.

So, despite promising that it would be the first thing he'd do, Obama never got around to withdrawing from Afghanistan, and Iraq took ages. He didn't cut spending when he extended the Bush Tax Cuts in 2010, even though the spending cuts are what made the tax cuts fail in the first place.

Could go on, but class starts in ten minutes

Bush 1.5? I really want to know what brought you to think that.

That may be true, but that fact probably would of been virtually the same if either party had got into power in 2008. Do you think McCain would have curbed the deficit any better?

You do realize that it would be a pretty stupid thing to do to pack and leave a war-torn country after 11 years on and off since the initial invasion. The UK is as deep as you are in that country, if not worse as we been at the front of fierce fighting for over 5 years with hundreds of casualties. But we tolerate their continued presence there because if we pulled out now, they'd just end up in a much worse position then we entered it. Both your country and mine have a clear timeline to exiting Afghanistan, with most experts believing you'd be out by mid 2013. We might be there until 2014.

The tax cut thing seems dumb so I agree with you there.

Please continue, it's nice to learn about your system and policies. It's nice to know no matter the country, Politicians will always be incompetent. Razz

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Lets put it this way. We have three options:

Option A



Option B:
Anybody else. Please.

Option C:



Bane wrote:We take Gotham from the corrupt! The rich! The oppressors of generations who have kept you down with myths of opportunity, and we give it back to you… the people. Gotham is yours. None shall interfere. Do as you please. Start by storming Blackgate, and freeing the oppressed! Step forward those who would serve. For and army will be raised. The powerful will be ripped from their decadent nests, and cast out into the cold world that we know and endure. Courts will be convened. Spoils will be enjoyed. Blood will be shed. The police will survive, as they learn to serve true justice. This great city… it will endure. Gotham will survive!

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by CivBase on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:18 pm

KristallNacht wrote:or "It's illegal to BE married to someone of the same gender" the concept is, it applies to everyone, so it can't be discrimination, right?
Actually, this is exactly right. It's stupid, but not discriminatory. It may just be semantics, but it's semantics that lead people into ridiculous assumptions about prejudice and civil rights which simply aren't true.

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Lord Pheonix on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Vigil wrote:[ Both your country and mine have a clear timeline to exiting Afghanistan, with most experts believing you'd be out by mid 2013. We might be there until 2014.

Well i'm set to deploy sometime in 2014 currently so let's see lol

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:45 pm

Vigil wrote:Please continue, it's nice to learn about your system and policies. It's nice to know no matter the country, Politicians will always be incompetent. Razz
Will do so when I have time.

In the meantime, have you seen the following bumper sticker?

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by laxspartan007 on Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:52 pm

KrAzY wrote:Vermin supreme ran the most honest campaign

he had my vote with the "Pony Platform Plan" (i dont like ponies tho...)
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Re: Presidential Race

Post by KristallNacht on Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:57 pm

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Vigil on Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:15 am

Given the response in the picture I ask again.

What is it with Obama that some of you have turned on so much and why does Romney seem like a good alternative?

I'm really struggling to understand it.

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Rotaretilbo on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:14 pm

I believe most of us here didn't like Obama in the first place. His campaign last election was "Change" and all he did was more of the same. He campaigned on the idea of not being a politician, but he wound up being the politicianiest politician that ever politicianed a politician. Then again, anyone who didn't recognize Obama as the charismatic husk he's proven to be is blind anyway.

Obama's administration has been a joke. The deficit's half again what it was before (from 10 trillion to 15 trillion; I'll note that it took Bush 8 years to accumulate 5 trillion in debt), Obama enacted laws that were even more extreme than the PATRIOT Act (indefinite detention of US citizens and the right to assassinate whomever he pleases is a little more extreme than unrestricted intelligence gathering), unemployment practically doubled (unemployment peaked during Bush's second term right before the 2008 elections at 6.5%, it was as low as 4.4% on four occasions towards the end of 2006 and the beginning of 2007; the average unemployment during Bush's second term was 5%; unemployment peaked a year into the Obama administration at 10%; it was as low as 6.8% when he took office, but hasn't been below 7.8% since 2008; the average unemployment during the Obama administration was 9%). He failed to meet pretty much any of his campaign promises, and everything that Bush got crap for, Obama has done the same shit if not worse. He escalated the war in Afghanistan, he presided over a disaster in the Gulf (albeit this time a man-made preventable one), he failed to fix healthcare at all, the list could go on.

I don't know a lot about Romney, so I'm not saying he's any better, but he's going to be hard pressed to be worse than Obama.

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Vigil on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:39 pm

Well, anybody who really believed that Obama would actually be a new bred of Politician was just fooling themselves. That system is well and truly established and not going to change.

We have a government here who have had us in austerity for over 5 years trying to lower our deficit and they've failed, as government borrowing went up this year.

The Patriot stuff sounds pretty shitty and I agree it's a bad move.

Unemployment has gone up here as well, again with incentives to stop it. Using figures from before the credit crisis is pretty irrelevant, as things have changed a lot as nobody is giving out the same opportunities since that happened.

Yep, since thing happened here. Politicians just suck, they'll never do what they say they will. We had a politician who promised to remove tuition fees if he got elected. The minute he got into office he raised them. Things like that happen.

As for Romney, I don't see anything he says is an improvement on what Obama would do.

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by KristallNacht on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:41 pm

Which is why Gary Johnson exists!!!
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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Angatar on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:59 pm

What power did Obama have between election day and his inauguration, or any president in general? To my knowledge, the president is the president up until the inauguration. Sure they president-elect is talked to and briefed and all that fun stuff, but I don't believe they have any real power. 6.8% was in November, 7.8% in January when he took office, and the unemployment rate had been increasing since April 2008.

I don't see any reason why people losing money and jobs is directly related to Obama being in office, especially if the trend was there before the man was even in office. It's not as if him stepping into the Oval Office suddenly changes everything about the government and economy.

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Nocbl2 on Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:37 pm

Angatar wrote:
What power did Obama have between election day and his inauguration, or any president in general? To my knowledge, the president is the president up until the inauguration. Sure they president-elect is talked to and briefed and all that fun stuff, but I don't believe they have any real power. 6.8% was in November, 7.8% in January when he took office, and the unemployment rate had been increasing since April 2008.

I don't see any reason why people losing money and jobs is directly related to Obama being in office, especially if the trend was there before the man was even in office. It's not as if him stepping into the Oval Office suddenly changes everything about the government and economy.
Where are the y axes on those graphs? I'm not sure what they are...
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Re: Presidential Race

Post by KristallNacht on Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:55 pm

percent unemployment.
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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Rotaretilbo on Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:46 pm

Vigil wrote:Well, anybody who really believed that Obama would actually be a new bred of Politician was just fooling themselves. That system is well and truly established and not going to change.

I agree. That's why I thought it was extremely dishonest that Obama campaigned on "change". It was a campaign platform designed explicitly to mislead the ignorant.

Vigil wrote:We have a government here who have had us in austerity for over 5 years trying to lower our deficit and they've failed, as government borrowing went up this year.

The point is that Bush was lambasted very violently by the entirety of our media, barring the conservative FOX, for accumulating 5 trillion in debt over 8 years. Obama managed to do the same in 4 years. Probably something to do with cutting taxes and increasing government spending...

Vigil wrote:The Patriot stuff sounds pretty shitty and I agree it's a bad move.

You know that you're going to far when a statist like me thinks you're going too far.

Vigil wrote:Unemployment has gone up here as well, again with incentives to stop it. Using figures from before the credit crisis is pretty irrelevant, as things have changed a lot as nobody is giving out the same opportunities since that happened.

The point is that people lambasted the Bush administration because of the recession and unemployment, and it's only gotten worse under Obama.

Vigil wrote:Yep, since thing happened here. Politicians just suck, they'll never do what they say they will. We had a politician who promised to remove tuition fees if he got elected. The minute he got into office he raised them. Things like that happen.

I totally forgot to mention that Obama raised tuition, which sucks. I mean, tuition goes up every year, but it was much more drastic of late.

Vigil wrote:As for Romney, I don't see anything he says is an improvement on what Obama would do.

Say what you will about Romney, but the man appears to be able to balance a checkbook, given that he makes something like 20 million a year in long term investments. Right now, that's a pretty big improvement on the current state of our economy. Obama's campaign has always left a bad taste in my mouth because he's the definition of a charismatic husk that pretends to be human. From what I've read, Romney's been a lot less dishonest in his campaigning. I could be wrong, as I said, but I've not see much brought up in that regard. The big problem people seem to have with Romney is that he's been incredibly vague about his plans. But hey, do you go with something that might work, or something you know won't?

Angatar wrote:What power did Obama have between election day and his inauguration, or any president in general? To my knowledge, the president is the president up until the inauguration. Sure they president-elect is talked to and briefed and all that fun stuff, but I don't believe they have any real power. 6.8% was in November, 7.8% in January when he took office

Sure, go ahead and cut off November and December. When he took office in January, there was a severe spike in unemployment which continued throughout 2009.

Angatar wrote:and the unemployment rate had been increasing since April 2008.

If you're going to try and artificially inflate how long it had been steadily increasing, you might as well go as far back as May 2007, when it reached the last low of 4.4. But it didn't start steadily rising until October 2008.

Angatar wrote:I don't see any reason why people losing money and jobs is directly related to Obama being in office, especially if the trend was there before the man was even in office. It's not as if him stepping into the Oval Office suddenly changes everything about the government and economy.

I'm not saying it's his fault. Simply that people tend to blame the President. They blamed Bush for the economy and the recession for eight years, and when it got worse under the Obama administration, everyone suddenly seems ok with it. That's what pisses me off.

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by dragoon9105 on Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:30 pm

Romney isn't going to fix the economy its going to fix itself like it always does. Hell its Congress that determines where the government is throwing its funds so unless Republicans win big in the Senate Romney won't have anything to pass.
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Re: Presidential Race

Post by KristallNacht on Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:36 pm

Which is why Gary Johnson is there!!!!
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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Angatar on Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:20 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Sure, go ahead and cut off November and December.
Because that's when Bush was president... Obama didn't take office until January 20, 2009. What was he supposed to do with his then non-existent power?
Rotaretilbo wrote:When he took office in January, there was a severe spike in unemployment which continued throughout 2009.
7.8% when he took office, peaked at 10.0% in 2009. 10.0%-7.8%=2.3%
4.9% low in 2008 under Bush, 7.8% when he left office. 7.8%-4.9%=2.9%

Significantly less than what was happening under Bush at the time.
Rotaretilbo wrote:
If you're going to try and artificially inflate how long it had been steadily increasing, you might as well go as far back as May 2007, when it reached the last low of 4.4. But it didn't start steadily rising until October 2008.
From April 2008 to January 2009, it was increasing except for the one month where it stayed the same. +.4%, +.2%, +.2%, +.3%, 0%, +.4%, +.3%, +.5%, +.5%. That seems pretty consistent to me.

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Re: Presidential Race

Post by Rotaretilbo on Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:32 am

dragoon9105 wrote:Romney isn't going to fix the economy its going to fix itself like it always does. Hell its Congress that determines where the government is throwing its funds so unless Republicans win big in the Senate Romney won't have anything to pass.

Arguments like this void the point of arguing. When we argue that the President doesn't have the power to change anything, we must acknowledge that whomever is President doesn't matter at all. In that case, you might as well have someone who isn't a sack of shit with nothing to stand on but charisma and the fact that he's a minority.

Angatar wrote:Because that's when Bush was president... Obama didn't take office until January 20, 2009. What was he supposed to do with his then non-existent power?

You seem to be confused (read stupid). I was conceding to cut off those months because it didn't matter.

Angatar wrote:7.8% when he took office, peaked at 10.0% in 2009. 10.0%-7.8%=2.3%
4.9% low in 2008 under Bush, 7.8% when he left office. 7.8%-4.9%=2.9%

Significantly less than what was happening under Bush at the time.

Obama sure did a wonderful job with his super majority curbing that unemployment spike. Oh wait...it persisted all the way through the super majority. Imagine that.

Angatar wrote:From April 2008 to January 2009, it was increasing except for the one month where it stayed the same. +.4%, +.2%, +.2%, +.3%, 0%, +.4%, +.3%, +.5%, +.5%. That seems pretty consistent to me.

Except that we see increases and decreases of .2% regularly throughout a stable level of unemployment. There isn't a consistent abnormal spike in unemployment until October 2008.

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Re: Presidential Race

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