Gun Control

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Re: Gun Control

Post by Vigil on Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:51 am

KrAzY wrote:just to clear up something, the constitution was written 5 years AFTER the revolutionary war, not "on the eve" of it

Yeah, I'm terrible at US history, because I was taught nothing about it.

The point still stands though, as the threat of retaliation was still very real at the time.

Also I'll respond in kind to you Recon, once I have a bit more time.

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Re: Gun Control

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:10 am


Vigil wrote:Self defense? So during a burglary you response if to go to your gun cabinet, get ammo and a gun, and shoot them?

No, it's reach over an grab my already condition 1 Beretta off the nightstand, along with a flashlight. Try to locate them through sound, without using the flashlight. Shine that bright ass surefire on them while yelling at them to get on the ground. While they decide whether to comply or attempt to fight, I get to use my newly acquired eyesight (from the light) to figure out 1. if they are a threat, and 2. are they simply a family member up in the night for whatever reason. More than likely a family member will get on the ground, and hopefully (for them) a threat will choose to do the same. In which case I can drive my knee into their shoulders while I zip-tie them and call the cops. If they choose to fight, or make any movement other than "get on the ground" they get shot. At which point I secure them and grab a medkit.

"I don't carry a gun for self defense. I don't carry a gun for protection. I carry a gun to shoot people in their fucking face that are hurting other people." - James Yeager

"I don't carry a gun because I love it, I carry a gun because I love life and the people in it that make it meaningful to me"

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance - Thomas Jefferson


I had a longer reply typed up with some actual statistics, but my comp kept freezing. maybe I'll try again.
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Re: Gun Control

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:19 am

Just some statistics on gun control vs. homicides in various countries.

Brazil has 1/100th the number of guns per capita as the us. It has over 60x the amount of gun related homicide per capita.

Russia has 1/10th the number of guns per capita as the US. It has over 3x the amount of homicide per capita as the US.

UK has less than 1/10th the number of guns per capita as the US. It has 1/4th the number of homicides per capita.

Switzerland has half the number of guns per capita as the US. It has half the number of homicides as the UK (making it 1/8th the number of homicides per capita as the US)

Germany has 3/4ths the number of guns per capita as Switzerland and only 1/7th more homicide.

Basically, culture has a far greater affect than number of guns. It's interesting to note that the 3 worse countries for homicide in this case (Brazil, Russia, US) are also the 3 largest. Which is interesting considering the stat is on capita and not total.
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Re: Gun Control

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:22 am

Now, about mass killings.

Mass killings in the US have stayed steady at roughly 20 per year since 1980. 2003 is the peak of that time period with 30.

Only 1 mass killing since 1956 happened outside of a gun free zone, with most happening in federal gun free zones. In the case of Aurora, CO, the killer went out of his way to a further away movie theater, that happened to be a gun free movie theater.

The most deadly mass killing in a US school happened in 1926 with 45 killed. Long before Call of Duty, and pac-man.

A child in school (k-12) is a few hundred thousand times more likely to be injured or killed by interpersonal human aggression than by fire (technically a divide by zero) but America is always sure to make sure every room has a fire alarm, and that the fire code is met, but many still don't want armed peace officers in schools. Sandy Hook didn't have an armed officer.

Would a teacher with a concealed carry handgun help the situation for the kids? Probably.

Would a armed sworn peace officer improve the situation? Definitely.
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Re: Gun Control

Post by dragoon9105 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:43 am

All three of those countries its also very hard to enforce gun laws because of their aforementioned size.

Also keep in mind Switzerland is service by requirement you have to have severe mental problems to even think about robbing someone when armed soldiers could literally be right outside the door.

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Re: Gun Control

Post by Toaster on Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:48 am

NT wrote:Basically, culture has a far greater affect than number of guns. It's interesting to note that the 3 worse countries for homicide in this case (Brazil, Russia, US) are also the 3 largest. Which is interesting considering the stat is on capita and not total.

Or at least factors other than gun-availability. I think it's pretty fair to say that almost all gun violence (and crime in general) in the United States can be attributed either to slavery, the war on drugs, or poor education (or a combination thereof).

Gangs exist because of slavery, followed by racist policies, accompanied and followed by decades of mistreatment. Drug-related violence exists because of the nature of prohibition. Bad schooling and bad parenting do all the rest of the work.

Also keep in mind Switzerland is service by requirement you have to have severe mental problems to even think about robbing someone when armed soldiers could literally be right outside the door.

Yeah, there are fewer guns per capital in Switzerland, but a much higher percentage of households have A (singular) gun.

All three of those countries its also very hard to enforce gun laws because of their aforementioned size

You COULD argue that it's a testament to the benefits of having smaller states handle everything, both because it would be simpler to enforce locally, and because each state could shape laws that are most appropriate for the local population/other factors. You COULD argue that... though the most likely reasons are:

US - Slavery, drug war
Brazil - Drug War
Russia - Soviet Rule, political instability, cold-blooded Russians
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Re: Gun Control

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:03 pm

Well, that suggestion of having states control it (due to land size) is based on a controlled border, which is infrastructure that America can't handle on a national level, and could definitely not afford on a state-based level.

One thing I forgot, if you see a stat talking about the US having a ridiculous amount more handgun violence than the rest of the world, its a statistic that is stacked culturally. America is the only country in the world where you are more likely to be attacked by a single person with a handgun than any other combination. The bulk of the rest of the world prefers groups of people with long guns.
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Lord Pheonix on Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:23 pm

Also stacked because of the sheer amount of people we have compared to other countries.

You're more likely to get stabbed, be in a car accident, get beaten up by a drunk, find 10 dollars on the ground, see elvis, and pretty much anything because we have a higher statistical chance of having it happen.

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Re: Gun Control

Post by KrAzY on Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:39 pm

as much as the Connecticut shootings were a terrible horrible tragedy... more kids die in car accidents in a day than from gun violence in a year.

one of the big issues if that the media glorifies things like this by dedicating HUNDREDS of hours of coverage for every one of these horrible tragedies... for these awful statistical anomalies. 99% of people with guns never shoot another person with their gun let alone kill them. most people are good, and you can't stop bad people from being bad.

villify the person who does the evil act, not the tool they use to be evil.
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Re: Gun Control

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:20 pm

I did the research and its something like 3 gun related homicides per 100,000 guns in the US.
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Re: Gun Control

Post by CivBase on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:06 pm

Vigil wrote:Well, I'm going to step in this again, and clarify a few things, as Civ seemed to distort what I said.
I wasn't trying to distort what you said. You just happened to be the person to point out that strict gun control wont completely stop gun violence. Sorry if it seemed like anything else.

Vigil wrote:As you know I live in a country with very strict gun control, and we have one of the lowest rates of gun crime in the world. (0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in 2009 compared to the United States' 3.0 [over 40 times higher]).

I mentioned that didn't stop some gun crime happening, and yes there is some, but the last 'Massacre' we experienced in this country was the Dunblane School Shooting in 1996 which left 16 children dead. Much like you are now, there was much talk of stricter gun laws and a year later all handguns were banned in this country. (As the attacker used 2 sets of handguns.)

In 2010 we had a manhunt in Cumbria for a man who went on a shooting spree, killing 12 people. The man was a licensed gun holder, so yes the system isn't perfect, but these are the only 2 major incidents like this in over 30 years. The same cannot be said for the US, where you have had such a large volume over the last 20 years, Columbine, Virginia Tech and now Sandy Hook.
Right, but the US is also considerably larger and, as I already said, we tend to have an abnormally high proportion of less-than-model human beings (among other contributing factors).

Vigil wrote:Yes, what Rasq said was correct, as criminals do use other weapons in attacks to get the job done, for example here in London there is a significant rate of knife attacks. But it makes no logical sense to me why having criminals who don't have access to weapons that you are less likely to survive from is such a terrible thing. Yes If you really wanted to get a gun, you could probably get one illegally, but even then you run a serious risk of being caught by the authorities and if your that committed, you probably couldn't have been stopped no matter if you licensed the gun or not. At least our way it's a damn sight harder.
It's also harder to defend yourself or find assistance.

Vigil wrote:Please tell me why in the 21st Century you still all need guns when your country is in no real threat of invasion by a hostile power or risk of another civil war?

Self defence? So during a burglary you response if to go to your gun cabinet, get ammo and a gun, and shoot them? Why not a baseball bat, or any impromptu weapon? Crime can strike at any time, and you have a flight or fight response when presented with it, do you really have time to get a gun? Besides most burglaries occur when the occupant isn't home, so what are your protecting yourself from by having a gun there?
Self defense by owning guns is a two-part idea. Obviously, the guns can be used as a means to subdue unarmed attackers but the second part is probably most powerful. An attacker is far less likely to pick a target if that target is able to fight back. Of course, there's plenty more debate to be had there but I'll hold off on it unless someone wants to get into it.

Our right to own guns, however, is not only about self defense. Our right to own guns is about keeping the government itself in check. Like Recon said, the Bill 'o Rights was drafted to limit the Federal government. They didn't want a powerful central government, especially after coming off the heals of a tyrant king and a revolution. The threat of revolution was designed to be a constant check on the government and, now more than ever, US citizens want it back. As long as revolution is an understood threat, it wont be necessary. You could debate this too, but those are the primary reasons I see against strict gun control.

EDIT: Please note I'm not as radical as these last couple paragraphs make me seem. Just too lazy to word it better.

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Re: Gun Control

Post by dragoon9105 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:17 pm

A right designed when a militiaman and his rifle made or broke the war.

Now we have Tanks, Aircraft, Heavy MG's cluster Warheads, The infantryman and his rifle may win the day even against though but any oppressive government worth rebelling against would also not think to much of using nuclear weapons to quell said rebellion dooming EVERYONE in the process.
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Re: Gun Control

Post by KrAzY on Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:36 pm

impossibility of winning a conflict doesn't mean that when one is justified it shouldn't be waged. theres no way an armed militia could win against the US government, but if the US government was ever in a position where they would be willing to use nuclear weapons on their own citizens then the only moral choice would be to fight that government.

the 2nd amendment would however be useful in stopping a police state from breaking the 1st and 4th amendments. They dont use tanks or nukes to break into and unconstitutionally arrest people, or deny them freedom of speech. things that DO already happen that people let them get away with.

in this country the people have the power the only power government has is what we give to them, and lately people have been too willing to give them more power than they need to do the few jobs they were intended to do.
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Lord Pheonix on Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:44 pm

dragoon9105 wrote:A right designed when a militiaman and his rifle made or broke the war.

Now we have Tanks, Aircraft, Heavy MG's cluster Warheads, The infantryman and his rifle may win the day even against though but any oppressive government worth rebelling against would also not think to much of using nuclear weapons to quell said rebellion dooming EVERYONE in the process.



First of all any fight that is worth fighting should not be backed down from because the other side is bigger. History and stories are told of the little man who fought and won not because of his might but because he tried.


And second, no country will nuke it's own soil for anything short of alien invasion or zombie outbreak. People seriously overestimate our willingness to use the bombs. I mean really, we are one of the leading nations trying to dismantle the bombs and stop others from making them but everyone seems to think that we would use them the instant shit gets hairy.

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Re: Gun Control

Post by Gauz on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:17 am

I have to agree with LP, nuclear bombs kind of have repercussions of using them you know? Like fallout.
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Re: Gun Control

Post by KristallNacht on Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:07 pm

I only see the practicality of nuclear weapon usage on the political stage. If you use a nuje on a foreign country, the entire world is now against you. If you use it on your own soil to repel hostile invasion, you were backed into a corner and sympathy is with yiu. If you use them on your own people the entire world is against you.
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:27 pm

Even if you use nukes on your own soil to repel a hostile invasion, I can't imagine many will be sympathetic. How many people were sympathetic when Andross screamed "IF I GO DOWN I'M TAKING YOU WITH ME!" before self-destructing?

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Re: Gun Control

Post by KristallNacht on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:40 pm

You were the good guy, backed into a corner by an evil empire. To preserve your peoples freedom you were forced to use nuclear arms.
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:59 pm

Preserve your people's freedoms? Modern nuclear weapons render large areas completely uninhabitable indefinitely and would spread radiation across much of the world. People still bitch about the use of atomic weapons in Japan and all the awful after effects, and modern nukes would do a million fold that. You wouldn't have many people left if you nuked on your own soil.

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Re: Gun Control

Post by KrAzY on Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:20 pm

actually Rot you need to do your research a bit. modern nuclear weapons, although much more powerful than the ones used at the end of WWII, are significantly cleaner. (still puts out irradiated fallout, but most certainly not a million times more)

if it was a choice between stopping an invading force and losing 1 city with the tactical use of a nuclear weapon. or trying to stop that force in combat and end up losing SEVERAL cities. the nuke would be the more logical option.



the media has also portrayed radiation a bit worse than it is in real life, the biggest issue with a nuke is what it would do to water supplies, contaminating them. would cause bigger issues down the road, but in an immedate situation I would rather take on an unhealthy dose of radiation than an invading motorized army.... remember... there HAVE been nukes detonated inside of the united states a lot of times.
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Lord Pheonix on Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:42 am

KrAzY wrote:.... remember... there HAVE been nukes detonated inside of the united states a lot of times.

In states directly next to Rot even.



And any kind of invasion force that was powerful enough to invade the United States would not limit itself and put the entirety of it's forces into a single blast radius area lending the idea of nuking moot.



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Re: Gun Control

Post by Gauz on Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:56 am

What gives you the idea that modern nuclear weapons are 'cleaner' than old ones?

Nuclear weapons should never be used. Once you use them, you open the doors for other nations to use them, or in our case... build them.
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Re: Gun Control

Post by Lord Pheonix on Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:02 am

Gauz wrote:What gives you the idea that modern nuclear weapons are 'cleaner' than old ones?


The fact that they are built to be cleaner than the old ones?


And that we even refer to the the old ones as "dirty" and the new ones as "clean".


Last edited by Lord Pheonix on Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Gun Control

Post by KrAzY on Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:03 pm

you know, also the fact that this is something I find interesting and have actually researched, instead of just going wit gut feelings or media portrayal.


Look up the radiation output of a fission bomb (hiroshima) vs a thermonuclear bomb (the kind we have now)
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Re: Gun Control

Post by KristallNacht on Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:11 pm

Lord Pheonix wrote:

The fact that they are built to be cleaner than the old ones?


And that we even refer to the the old ones as "dirty" and the new ones as "clean".

False. 'Dirty' nukes are so named because they aren't technically nuclear power explosives. They are conventional explosives with a lot of nuclear material. The conventional explosive simply launches nuclear material all over the place, while a nuclear weapon uses the nuclear material as the actual explosive force.

tl;dr dirty nukes are used because of radiation, real nukes are used because of big explosions.
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Re: Gun Control

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