Obamacare/ universal health care

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Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by A_Bearded_Swede on Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:01 pm

Hey all, i would just like everyone's opinion on the idea of Obamacare (Americans) and Universal Health Care (Those who have it)

Personally the idea of having a healthcare system such as Germany's is very appealing to me.

One, i currently havent had health care for 2 years due to the inability to afford it. Being able to get my own would be fantastic, even if i had to pay more taxes for it.

I dont really want to go in depth myself, but one of the most disgusting arguements i've heard against it is "Why should the poor get the same great healthcare as the rich?"

... o.O wat.

Anyways, i know Obamacare isnt that great, but i feel its a step in the right direction.

What do you guys think?

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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by KrAzY on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:37 pm

I think that a system of universal basic healthcare is a good idea, however from the little that I have researched about it I do not think that the ACA (as currently written) is what we need right now.

the problem is that instead of actually figuring out what WOULD work all that happens is that liberals call conservitaves heartless and say "anything is better than nothing" and conservatives call liberals bleeding hearts and and refuse to talk to them.

if people stopped calling eachother names then things could probably get worked out. but that isnt going to happen so we are going to get stuck with a poorly constucted system that people wont let get changed without first revoking it, which also wont happen.


all the while healthcare costs will keep going up because there is nothing in place to stop hospitals marking up things by THOUSANDS of percents, rich people wont be affected by it at all since they can afford the best treatments, the middle class and poor will get basic coverage, but still get fucked over by the hospitals who will charge $1000 bucks for something that costs $30 bucks.

as for the "the poor shouldn't get the same treatment as the rich"... in a utopia where all healthcare is the same and all doctors are equally equipped and skilled at their jobs, I would be with you on that, but in the reality of this world that isn't the case. there is no feasible way to make that the case. and if I get sick I want to be able to make sure that the doctor I go to will actually help me, even if that means me having to pay more.


you dont get to argue against what we have with utopian ideas that could never happen. I dont want to see people dieing of treatable diseases just because they cant afford a doctor (therefore I think everyone should have easy access to doctors, medication, and nessicary surgery), but things like preventive surgery (like getting your appendix out before getting appendicitis), cosmetic surgery, and chiropractic adjustments are all also covered by health insurance. I think that shit needs to be taken off except under VERY SPECIFIC circumstances that some doctors can decide.



I'm just sick of the mud slinging that happens EVERY SINGLE TIME this gets debated. they need to get some independent doctors in there to actually figure out what is nessicary to keep people alive and healthy, keep out political stuff... and get the argument away from fucking utopian ideals that are infeasable and expensive.


but we have the ACA, its not going to go away no matter how hard house republicans try to get rid of it, neither side is even willing to discuss ways to actually make it work. Here's hoping that it makes things better, because I dont think its going to see any changes or get replaced for a VERY long time because human beings suck.

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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Nocbl2 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:39 pm

The issue with healthcare in general is, like Mr.Inferior of the two Admins said, the fact that companies that produce items mark shit up by 300%, and hospitals go ahead and mark that up by 500%. There needs to be a limit on the amount a producer or hospital can mark up goods and services from what they actually cost.
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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by KristallNacht on Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:31 am

Spekwyse wrote:Being able to get my own would be fantastic, even if other people are forced to pay for it.
fixed

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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by KristallNacht on Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:36 am

Nocbl2 wrote:The issue with healthcare in general is, like Mr.Inferior of the two Admins said, the fact that companies that produce items mark shit up by 300%, and hospitals go ahead and mark that up by 500%. There needs to be a limit on the amount a producer or hospital can mark up goods and services from what they actually cost.
The reality of this situation is far from "mark up".

What hospitals actually do is throw charges against the wall and see what sticks. As hospitals are still currently private businesses they can charge what they want for anything. The biggest thing you get out of insurance isn't that they pay those charges, it's that they fight them. While an uninsured person may have to pay $5000 for something an insurance company only has to pay $250.

And there is one REALLY bad thing about your statement. How does one determine what a SERVICE costs? Services don't have a defined cost. Their value is what people are willing to pay for them. And, personally, to stay alive, I would pay a metric shit ton.
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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by dragoon9105 on Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:31 am

That goes against everything being a doctor stands for though. I don't think in the oath is "Exploit those in need, Only help when there is profit in it." Honestly if hospitals could start refusing emergency room treatment unless the patient left a down payment beforehand they'd do it, its ridiculous.
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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by KrAzY on Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:55 pm

doctors arent in charge of hospitals or even most doctors offices.... businessmen are
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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Elabajaba on Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:51 pm

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db2009064_666715.htm/

  Older study (~5 years old), but when medical problems cause 62% of all personal bankruptcies filed in the US (where 78% had insurance at the start of their issues, including 60.3% that had private insurance) it means your medical system is fucked.

  Universal health care isn't without its problems either. In Canada, we have some pretty long wait times for a lot of things (going months without surgery, a lot of hospitals don't have enough beds, a lot of those beds are taken up by people waiting on spots in nursing homes), and it costs a lot more money then it really should (government budgeting is stupid, so if you go under budget once, you risk being forced to have your budget changed to that, so places will just waste money to keep the same, or get a higher budget). Some things you still have to pay for (eg. filling prescriptions, dentist, optometrist), but a lot of companies offer insurance as part of your benefits that pays a % of those costs.

  Now, I love being able to go see a doctor when I'm sick and not having to be afraid of becoming bankrupt if its anything serious, so I'm not complaining, just saying that it isn't without its problems (but imo its better then the alternative).

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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:08 pm

KristallNacht wrote:
And there is one REALLY bad thing about your statement. How does one determine what a SERVICE costs? Services don't have a defined cost. Their value is what people are willing to pay for them. And, personally, to stay alive, I would pay a metric shit ton.
That is part of the problem; i'd say it's all due to how healthcare is run.

Lets break this down by simple economics

Consumers demand a good which is Healthcare.

Type of Good
Excludable and Rival;

Each consumer must pay for it and can be consumed only by the buyer/is consumed upon use

Utility
The total and marginal utility of this good is very high; even if you are normally fine, at some point it is likely that having/not having this good is a matter of life and death.

Consumers desire this good above most else; Providers of this good can charge high prices because of how high the utility is to consumers.

Demand
Generally, a very high quantity is demanded.

Supply
Generally, a high quantity is supplied (not always at prices affordable to all, however).

As this is a market system, let's look at some key aspects that impact it:

Notable Characteristics

-Competition: Nope, healthcare is largely non-competitive. A few huge companies supply the vast majority of necessary resources for the healthcare, and consumers receive it through a relatively small pool of providers.
-Substitutes: Nope, there are no substitutes for healthcare, sans (for some people) religion and witchcraft.
-Price/Production Floors/Ceilings: :Little in the way of ceilings; producers are free to raise prices and manage production as they see fit.
-Efficiency: Low, since everyone demands healthcare and many people do not HAVE it because they cannot afford it, it is inherently inefficient (a truly efficient system would balance demand with supply). This would be due to the self-imposed price floors and self-imposed production limits.

Due to the lack of competition and substitutes, this system is an Oligopoly.
This is overall, of course. Some consumers may have great selection on where to obtain healthcare, however, those providers themselves likely have little selection as to where they obtain their resources. Some component resources used to provide healthcare may even come from a good which when isolated exists in a monopolistic system. [Note: Capitalism only works well for everyone when it is competitive]

Because of our society this is accepted as fair. Since it is accept as fair by society, the government doesn't do much to regulate it (or rather, counter-regulate it against what the providers themselves are doing).

Add to this whatever you want.
I'm not drawing any conclusions right now, other than that the current system is flawed for a capitalistic economic model.

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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by laxspartan007 on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:08 am

I have not had healthcare for about 10 years now and only needed to go to the hospital once in those years, I don't want healthcare because I am usually pretty healthy and its expensive, if I don't get sick I am just spending that money expecting to get sick. Why should I be forced to get healthcare if I don't want it?

(forced meaning I get it or I pay the 100$ fee each year, and I think it goes up after each year)

I mean sure it is better for the masses but why should people that don't have healthcare get charged each year if it is their conscious choice to not have it?
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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Lord Pheonix on Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:16 pm

When you get in a car accident that's not your fault and have to spend a few days in the hospital and get that bill you might as well ask them to pull the plug mate.

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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:44 pm

The ACA does some good, but a lot of bad, and it doesn't address some of the fundamental problems with American healthcare.
The prices that hospitals charge for care aren't determined by the market. They're set by bureaucrats with little transparency, which makes it difficult to shop for an optimum price.

And, well, the ACA did nothing to increase the number of doctors in this country, so nothing has been done to increase the supply of healthcare. Bravo.
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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Tylertlat on Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:37 pm

Lord Pheonix wrote:When you get in a car accident that's not your fault and have to spend a few days in the hospital and get that bill you might as well ask them to pull the plug mate.

I don't know what it's like in your state, but in Michigan you need at least PLPD insurance on your car for it to be road legal.
Michigan Auto Law wrote: Motor vehicles on the roads are required by law to carry PLPD in almost every state, including Michigan
The insurance of the at-fault party pays for the emergency response services, property damage, and medical treatment for the no-fault party
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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Angatar on Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:13 pm

Tylertlat wrote:
The insurance of the at-fault party pays for the emergency response services, property damage, and medical treatment for the no-fault party
What happens when it's 50/50?

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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:36 pm

Here in Arizona, some wise bureaucrat determined that all traffic accidents are 50/50 fault, because if you didn't put your car there, it wouldn't have gotten hit. Yes, that's right. If a drunk driver plows into your car, which you had parked on your driveway, then it is 50% your fault for owning a car.

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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:40 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:Here in Arizona, some wise bureaucrat determined that all traffic accidents are 50/50 fault, because if you didn't put your car there, it wouldn't have gotten hit. Yes, that's right. If a drunk driver plows into your car, which you had parked on your driveway, then it is 50% your fault for owning a car.
That is a steamy pile of bullshit right there.

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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by KristallNacht on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:09 pm

Kasrkin Seath wrote:
Supply
Generally, a high quantity is supplied (not always at prices affordable to all, however).
Go spend some time in the Emergency Room at a Trauma hospital and try to say the "supply" is high. And before you say "well, that's at a trauma hospital" realize that many many hospitals have no serious trauma capability.

Also, you say that competition is "comparatively" low. compared to what? I'd wager there are FAR more companies that run hospitals than make mobile phones. And that's not factoring in the near hundreds of EMS providers. A single hospital will probably receive patients from over a dozen different BLS and ALS units.


source: I'm part of the EMS community.
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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:12 am

KristallNacht wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:
Supply
Generally, a high quantity is supplied (not always at prices affordable to all, however).
Go spend some time in the Emergency Room at a Trauma hospital and try to say the "supply" is high. And before you say "well, that's at a trauma hospital" realize that many many hospitals have no serious trauma capability.
"Generally, a high quantity is supplied (not always at prices affordable to all, however)." In direct reference to health insurance; should have made that clear.


Also, you say that competition is "comparatively" low. compared to what? I'd wager there are FAR more companies that run hospitals than make mobile phones. And that's not factoring in the near hundreds of EMS providers. A single hospital will probably receive patients from over a dozen different BLS and ALS units.
Compared to an idealized market system where there are so many suppliers, all which are small, that none of them have an impact on the overall market. You're also ignoring the fact that it isn't just hospitals (also that in a particular area there may be few providers actually operating), there other chunks of healthcare, like pharmaceuticals with (IIRC) it's top ten providers controlling around 2/3's of the market... that's not very competitive, ignoring that many of them produce drugs without any competition for that drug whatsoever.

Mobile phone industry might even be non-competitive, just so you know. Soft drinks is a non-competitive industry.

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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Lord Pheonix on Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:18 am

Tylertlat wrote:
Lord Pheonix wrote:When you get in a car accident that's not your fault and have to spend a few days in the hospital and get that bill you might as well ask them to pull the plug mate.
I don't know what it's like in your state, but in Michigan you need at least PLPD insurance on your car for it to be road legal.
Michigan Auto Law wrote: Motor vehicles  on the roads are required by law to carry PLPD in almost every state, including Michigan
The insurance of the at-fault party pays for the emergency response services, property damage, and medical treatment for the no-fault party
Really not the point I was making.

Shit happens and people get hurt for reasons not of their fault.

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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by KristallNacht on Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:42 am

so Seath, you're claiming that Pharmaceuticals where 10 companies control 2/3rds of the product is worse than in mobile technology where 1 company controls nearly half the product?

Why is it acceptable for mobile tech but not for meds?

I don't really see the point in trying to punish companies that keep people alive by limiting their profit.


and btw, I also acknowledged this wasn't just about hospitals, I just used that as a limiting factor for the argument so as not to go hog wild.
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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by KrAzY on Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:45 am

well, to be fair to the hospital argument, the high risk people whose coverage and medical costs are orders of magnitude higher than most people will be going to specialists in hospitals. heck, most doctors offices just refer regular not in serious risk of death people to a specialist in a hospital right now if you need anything more serious done than blood drawn, getting an injection, or getting a prescription.
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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Nocbl2 on Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:32 pm

There is a reason they refer people, though. A general practitioner doesn't have the same knowledge about, say, a heart condition as a cardiologist might have. A GP would handle things like prescribing antibiotics or dealing with medium-seriousness infections. A cardiologist would know everything about the heart, not just a basic knowledge. Then again, he wouldn't be as refined in other medical positions.

Everyone is "high-risk" at some point or another (unless you die from some instantaneous cause). Going to specialists is less special than it's made out to be.
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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:00 pm

KristallNacht wrote:so Seath, you're claiming that Pharmaceuticals where 10 companies control 2/3rds of the product is worse than in mobile technology where 1 company controls nearly half the product?
Tell me exactly when I said it was acceptable for mobile phone tech? It seems you are trying to argue with me by countering points I never made to begin with; all I did was point out that pharmaceuticals are non-competitive, and that the mobile phone industry is likely non-competitive as well.

KristallNacht wrote:
Why is it acceptable for mobile tech but not for meds?
Once again, I never claimed it was acceptable or unacceptable.

KristallNacht wrote:
I don't really see the point in trying to punish companies that keep people alive by limiting their profit.
When did I make the claim that we should punish companies by limiting their profit? When did I claim we should punish them at all? Are you sure you are arguing with me right now, or is there another person using my username that you don't like?

KristallNacht wrote:and btw, I also acknowledged this wasn't just about hospitals, I just used that as a limiting factor for the argument so as not to go hog wild.
You might want to apply some limiting factors to yourself, considering you are going hog wild with your accusations.

The whole analysis was a simple one seeing how the health care industry relates to the ideal free market/capitalist system(mostly the same thing). I was neither attacking nor supporting it (which is something you CLEARLY seem to be doing).

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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by Tylertlat on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:46 pm

Angatar wrote:
Tylertlat wrote:
The insurance of the at-fault party pays for the emergency response services, property damage, and medical treatment for the no-fault party
What happens when it's 50/50?
In that case, the two insurance companies play hot potato with whose 50 is larger, as well as seeing if there are any other applicable insurance policies (health,property, ect...) they can try to pass responsibility to.
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Re: Obamacare/ universal health care

Post by helvner on Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:12 am

/gg
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